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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000342madVRbugpublic2015-09-22 14:032015-09-25 20:22
ReporterClintJCL 
Assigned Tomadshi 
PriorityhighSeveritymajorReproducibilityalways
StatusclosedResolutionnot fixable 
PlatformWindowsOSWindows 7OS Version6.1.7601
Summary0000342: Exclusive mode [usually] prevents interaction with other monitors.
Description"Exclusive" mode has been misinterpreted with this plugin to "force-pull" the mouse back into the screen displaying the movie.

While this may make sense for one-monitor people who possibly have "always on top" issues and other focus-grabbing issues, for multi-monitor people, this basically means, "If you choose MadVR over any other video plugin, including EVB, your computer will be crippled, and the thousands of dollars of extra hardware you bought will not be able to be used, only because MadVR decided no, not because of any actual causal technical requirement."

Steps To ReproduceTO SEE BASIC SITUATION:
Play anything fullscreen.
Try to do anything on any other monitor, like typing a command at the command-line.


ACHIEVEMENT 0000001:
Try clicking on something. Do so several times. For me, every 3rd-5th click manages to escape and get through. Even right clicks.


ACHIEVEMENT: "THE GREAT ESCAPE" MEDAL:
Unlocked when clicking enough to get full UI control to another monitor. Seemed to be the case for the past year or so, but whatever updates occurred in the past month or so (around 201508) seem to have put an end to this. I could often get out by holding the right button down, then clicking the left button 2 or 3 times, then letting go of the right button. That maneuver, repeated 20 times or so, would usually get me out enough that I could write down my Doctor Who plot notes. But then it stopped working.
Additional InformationMy kingdom for a checkbox, unchecked by default, which I can check to disable this behavior. I don't mind watching old Doctor Who episodes with EVB, but when I'm doing a 1080p 3-D movie at 240Hz, I really want to use the best, which is MadVR.

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[It's such a horrible choice: Either have lower video quality by using a non-MadVR plugin, or not be able to: check my email, take plot notes, look people up on imdb, start/stop the music when I go to bathroom or a guest arrives and interrupts the flow, reposition my IP camera, control my house lighting via my USB x10 controller, remote in to other machines, etc.]

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MPC-HC
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Build information:
    Version: 1.7.9 (846eff0)
    Compiler: MSVC 2013 Update 4 (SSE)
    Build date: Jun 1 2015 09:10:00

LAV Filters:
    LAV Splitter: 0.65.0.9
    LAV Video: 0.65.0.9
    LAV Audio: 0.65.0.9
    FFmpeg compiler: MinGW-w64 GCC 4.9.2

Operating system:
    Name: Windows NT 6.1 (build 7601, Service Pack 1)
    Version: 6.1 (64-bit)

Hardware:
    CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-5820K CPU @ 3.30GHz
    GPU1: AMD Radeon (TM) R9 200 Series (driver version: 8.17.10.1404)
    GPU2: AMD Radeon (TM) R9 200 Series (driver version: 8.17.10.1404)
    GPU3: AMD Radeon (TM) R9 200 Series (driver version: 8.17.10.1404)
             [I guess my 4th screen being powered off at the moment makes it unlisted]


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MACHINE: Intel Core i7-5820K Haswell-E 6-Core 3.3GHz with an Arctic Freezer I30 cooler on a ASRock X99 WS EATX motherboard with 24G of Crucial Ballistix Sport DDR4 2400mHz RAM, a Radeon R9 270 video card, and a Crucial M500 240GB M.2 SSD...all inside a massive NZXT Phantom 820 case.

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[p.s.: It would be nice if MadVR config UI had a single place to generate all the info for this ticket. Decoding and DXVA2 Scaling Active {the only answer I guessed} are particularly hard, maybe it would help if on the left of the ticket submit, they were links to some basic instructions]
TagsNo tags attached.
madVR Version0.87.10
Media Player (with version info)MPC-HC 1.7.9
Splitter (with version info)LAV Splitter 0.65.0.9
Decoder (with version info)MadVR 0.87.10
DecodingDXVA2 Native
Deinterlacingauto mode
DXVA2 Scaling Activeno
Aero / Desktop CompositionOn
Problem occurs with modefullscreen exclusive mode
GPU ManufacturerAMD
GPU ModelR9 270
GPU Driver Versionlatest stable, latest beta, and all latest versions in the past year
Attached Files

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0001157)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-22 14:11

Doesn't seem to be the case if video is played on non-primary monitor, however.
(0001158)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-22 16:43

Can you try the same situation with a Direct3D game in fullscreen exclusive mode? Any game, doesn't matter which? Just the Direct3D version should match. So if you have "use Direct3D 11 for presentation" checked in madVR, use a D3D11 game. If you don't have that checked, use a Direct3D 9 game.

The reason I'm asking is that this might very well be caused by Windows/Direct3D itself. There might not be anything I can do about it, when using fullscreen exclusive mode. Thus it's important to double check with a game, so we can know for sure if it's madVR's fault or not.
(0001159)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-22 16:57

Hi. As I was trying out your suggestion, I had a realization:

Games and movies are very different. With a game, your input devices are meant to be interacting with the game and nothing else. I'm sure we've all had flashbacks to a decade or two ago when pressing the Windows key messed up a full screen game by pulling us out of the game and interacting with Windows instead of the game.

A well-designed game will--regardless of operating system or framework--rightfully restrict all input devices to only interact with that game. [Sometimes letting you you alt-tab out of the game to differentiate intentions.]

So me finding an individual instance of a game that restricts input devices to the game itself merely proves that the game was properly designed, not that the rendering framework innately and additionally does the same thing.



I did have other questions, but I think it's an ideological dead end in th at it does not 100% prove much:

1) "if you have "use Direct3D 11 for presentation" checked in madVR, use a D3D11 game."

I looked some, but I couldn't find where to check this.


2) The only substantive game I have installed is Batman - Arkham Origins. I made it 5 minutes through it. I don't really game. I tried it, but of course it wouldn't let me mouse off of the game as that would be a really awful gaming experience and wouldn't make sense. I don't think it proves anything, though. Games are input-device-active, videos are not. Once started, you don't generally need to interact with it.



3) I'm quite willing to try other things out.

And again, it's only with MadVR. No other video renderer that I've tried on MPC, or VLC, behaves like this.

Problem is, none look as good as MadVR :)
(0001160)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-22 17:06

It's true that games have different requirements. But for me the big question is still whether it's my fault, or whether it's Direct3D's doing. You said yourself:

> Doesn't seem to be the case if video is played
> on non-primary monitor, however.

That is a strong indicator that it's not my fault, because I don't do *anything* different for primary vs secondary monitors.

Have you tested those other video renderers in fullscreen *EXCLUSIVE* mode? The exclusive part is key. If you compare madVR's exclusive mode to MPC's non-exclusive mode, that's not a fair comparison. If you don't need exclusive mode, you can just disable it in madVR, too, and the problem will probably gone, as well. Sadly, Windows 7's desktop composition has problems providing smooth motion on secondary monitors. Windows 8.1 is much better there, I think.
(0001161)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-22 20:01

I only make comparisons for diagnostic purposes, not necessarily for fairness or blame. That doesn't really matter to me. A great video experience is what matters to me. :)

I looked and it seems VLC doesn't support exclusive mode?
EVB-CP doesn't really have any checkbox I see for it.

Likely I'm missing something. Exclusive mode is a new concept to me. I followed an online guide chasing a better picture, because I notice things [visual codec artifacts] rooms full of guests never ever do. It's likely I just am ignorant of how to achieve the test you have indicated.

This problem wouldn't grind my gears as much if going full screen and back wasn't a 20+ second ordeal, which is a separate issue I'm asking for help in at the Doom9 forums. But ideally, I'd want to be able to wiggle my outdoor camera round to detect incoming guests while guests in the room with me get to watch the movie without unnecessary transitions out of fullscreen. It just makes sense, when it's usually the case when watching most video.

And perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way. Maybe I need to double check that exclusive mode is really what I need in the first place. But I thought that was the only way to get my TV to flip to the correct framerate. Which is something I never used to do until my 240Hz TV, which seems to have best 240Hz interpolation when running at the same framerate as the video. :)
(0001162)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-22 20:27

I'm not interested in fairness or blame, either. But if we want to be diagnostic, it's important to know if there's anything I can do, or not. And that can be deduced by first finding out who's to blame.

In the madVR options in "rendering -> general settings" try disabling "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode". This will disable exclusive mode, and will probably solve all problems you've reported. However, exclusive mode is also the most reliable (against frame drops and motion judder) rendering mode. So if you run into any motion smoothness problems afterwards, you know why.

I haven't used VLC in years so I don't know if it has an exclusive mode, probably not. In MPC-HC you can enable exclusive mode for EVR-Custom (but not EVR) by activating the "D3D Fullscreen" option.

To explain: Exclusive mode means that one application takes full control over the whole monitor and nobody else can draw to it. Historically this has been the best mode to render video (and play games) because without using exclusive mode you used to get tearing like crazy, especially on Windows XP and older OSs. When not using "exclusive", you're using "windowed" mode. Since Microsoft introduced desktop composition in Vista, the tearing problems in windowed mode were mostly gone. But when using desktop composition to render video on secondary monitors in Vista and Windows 7, you can get motion smoothness problems, because Windows usually uses one desktop composition rate for all monitors in those OSs. I believe this has been solved in Windows 8.1, which I think now supports different desktop composition refresh rates for different monitors.
(0001165)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-23 14:10

Thanks. Found it. I was looking for that exclusive mode setting under "exclusive mode settings", which is how I got confused. I had even looked where you said, but just didn't see it. I think my ability to find things in lists has been reduced by having 26 sq ft of screen. :/

Bad news: With exclusive mode off, if I click on any other monitor, the video disappears from the screen entirely. So the situation is actually made worse by this. It basically acts as if it's been minimized when I click on another screen. I then have to alt-tab or click the taskbar for MPC to get my video back.

Good news: TV still changed to proper framerate (because that helps with the 240Hz interpolation) even with exclusive mode off.

Summary: The original reason I thought I needed exclusive mode is stricken from the record and replaced with a new one: I need it for the video to not disappear when clicking on another machine.
(0001166)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-23 14:16

Can you try if the same problem happen when you switch MPC-HC to "Video Mixing Renderer 9 (windowed)"? Because that's the Microsoft renderer which has a similar window structure to madVR.
(0001167)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-23 14:16

Okay, back from testing EVR-CP with D3D Fullscreen option.

Nothing bad happens. I can click or do whatever I want on any other monitor with no ill effect or resistance.
(0001168)
ClintJCL (reporter)
2015-09-23 14:19

Tried "Video Mixing Renderer 9 (windows)".

The D3D checkbox is not active for this one. It shows it checked, but grayed out, which could simply mean that was the state the checkbox was in when I changed to that rendererer prior to it being grayed out (which I think is probable). Or it could mean that VMR9 is always in this mode and you can't change it (which I think is less likely).

Anyway, very neat! Same effect - if I click on another monitor, the video is minimized! I think we're on to something here.

Hmm, makes me wonder if EVR-CP is lying, or if they have found a trick around this.
(0001169)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-23 14:46

There are 2 different concepts of creating a video renderer:

a) The video renderer can create its own rendering window, to which it then renders. This window then becomes a child window of the media player's main window.

b) Instead of creating its own window, the video renderer can directly draw to the media player's window.

Both madVR and "Video Mixing Renderer 9 (windowed)" use method a). EVR and EVR-Custom use method b). It seems that the problem you're experiencing happens when using method a). Since the same problem happens with both madVR and VMR9 (windowed) that makes it very very unlikely that it's my fault. It's probably either a problem with how MPC-HC handles windowed video renderers, or more likely a behaviour by either Direct3D or Windows or your GPU driver.

Practically that means that this is unlikely to be something I can do anything about. You could try a different GPU driver version, or a different OS, or a different media player, to see if any of that makes a difference. Other than that I don't know what to suggest. I can't switch to concept b) without major effort.

From what I've read some users have similar problems to yours, but many userse have *not*. So this also suggests that it might depend on the media player, GPU, GPU driver or OS.
(0001173)
madshi (administrator)
2015-09-25 20:22

Ok, I'll close this bug report for now, since it doesn't seem to be madVR's fault, so there's probably nothing (at least not without changing the render concept) I can do about it.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2015-09-22 14:03 ClintJCL New Issue
2015-09-22 14:11 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001157
2015-09-22 16:43 madshi Note Added: 0001158
2015-09-22 16:57 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001159
2015-09-22 17:06 madshi Note Added: 0001160
2015-09-22 20:01 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001161
2015-09-22 20:27 madshi Note Added: 0001162
2015-09-23 14:10 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001165
2015-09-23 14:16 madshi Note Added: 0001166
2015-09-23 14:16 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001167
2015-09-23 14:19 ClintJCL Note Added: 0001168
2015-09-23 14:46 madshi Note Added: 0001169
2015-09-25 20:22 madshi Note Added: 0001173
2015-09-25 20:22 madshi Status new => closed
2015-09-25 20:22 madshi Assigned To => madshi
2015-09-25 20:22 madshi Resolution open => not fixable


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