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excuse me the countless typos and the wrong assignment of project.. this goes to madVR of course! where is the edit button of this thread :-) |
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Could it be that the GPU might switch into a power saving mode or something like that? I'm really not sure. In your GPU 3D Settings, can you set "Power Management Mode" to "Maximum Performance"? Not sure if that will help or not. In any case, it seems suspicious that this problem only starts to occur after 10-20 minutes. That would suggest that something changes at that time. Maybe madVR is running out of GPU memory (there might be a memory leak somewhere)? Or maybe the GPU overheats? Or maybe the media player or decoder is running out of something? I'm assuming this has worked fine in the past? I don't assume you know what you've changed which might have "created" this problem? You could try different Nvidia drivers versions, e.g. switch back to some much older, just as a test? Unfortunately, I don't really have any good suggestions, because especially with problems that are hard to reproduce, it's really difficult to get to the bottom of it. Hmmmm... I do assume that if you close the media player and restart it, it works fine again for another 10-20 minutes? If so, that should rule out overheating. What happens if you simply stop playback and restart it, without closing the media player? Does it still cause problems then? What happens if you reload the video file or load a completely different video file, without restarting the media player? |
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Hello thank you very much for reacting. Yes indeed, something about power saving is the problem. Thanks for the hint. It is just not really explainable what exactly happens. indeed my computer runs on power safer mode including that separate energy saver on. I have it all the time on so it should save as much energy as possible but still never go to sleep or hibernate etc. I tried first switching to high performance power mode and the issue did not appear even after more than 20 minutes. I did a simple search in the internet about 4k movie playback without stutters in windows 11 on the internet and found following solution: Go to system > Display > Graphics Under custom settings for applications add the mediaplayer exe (in my case mpc-be) In its drop down set GPU preference to high performance ("GFX Card Name") with this override I can even switch the computer back to energy saving mode. First tests are promising but I need to check if this really helped. About your other suggestions: pausing the playback and resuming did not help. Presentation glitches continued to count. Starting a new file in the same player i did not try but exiting from full screen and returning to full screen helped as well. What did not help either was to configure power management mode settings directly in nvidia driver to "prefer maximum performance. " It seems like windows is not yet capable of sending enough energy dynamically for devices in need Lets see how this evolves. I write again if something changes again. Thank you anyhow and best regards S |
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ok nevermind the solution did not help. I need to check again with balanced or high performance mode on. BUT: the presentation glitches stopped by moving the mouse down to the border of the fullscreen and the MPC-BE seek bar appeared. I have "enable automatic full-screen exclusive mode" not enabled. is this still an energy mode problem? grafik.png (2,924 bytes) |
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I don't understand your attached png, it's just some letters/numbers? I usually do use the automatic fullscreen exclusive mode. I've no idea what the issue is. Was just giving you my best guesses for possible explanations or workarounds. |
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Dear Friend I am sorry I have had an issue jumping from full screen to desktop filling out the thread here. I have no clue why a copy paste found its way to the image uploader. It would really be helpful if I could edit my own posts in here. :-) Thanks for your prompt replays anyhow. I tested the balanced energy mode without success so far. I will as a next attempt enable the exclusive mode again. If this does not help either I start to downgrade the MPC-BE Player versions. The hint with the player seek bar overlay is not a problem with windows or the nvidia driver, what would you say? how is a presentation glitch connected to the actual player window compared to its navigation overlay? Well however I believe this goes not into direction of madVR anyhow but might be more a problem with the player. I will also try to recreate the issue with the normal MPC. again thank you for your replies and tips. |
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ok then, tried with fullscreen exclusive mode on, in high performance power mode too.. no success. I will now try with MPC classic to make it hopefully easier to isolate the problematic software client. interesting point is really it happens pretty exactly after 10minutes all the time. what could have a counter that engages after right 10 minutes. .... (the power safe settings in my Mainboard BIOS are all set to AUTO. but It is still hard to believe this is an power save issue when even high performance does not work.. ) |
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I don't think it's the media player, but it definitely is a good idea to try a different one, just to rule that out. The seekbar being displayed means that it's not fullscreen, anymore, which means that the GPU driver will switch into a different mode. The GPU driver is clever enough to detect when a game or video renderer renders in fullscreen mode. In that situation, the GPU driver switches into "direct scanout" mode, which works a bit differently. In theory, it should be more efficient, and also allow full 10bit output to the display. It seems that you only get the problem in direct scanout mode, for some reason. The 10-20 minutes thing is definitely pointing to something, but I'm not sure to what exactly. You could use tools such a GPU-Z to check GPU RAM usage. Is there lots of GPU RAM left? Or is it near max capacity? If it's near max capacity, you could try reducing your GPU queue in madVR to a smaller number. |
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tested with MPC Classic .. same problem yes. Does this output from perplexity make any sense to you to change settings in madVR: Adjust Rendering Settings Change Buffer Flushing Settings: Set "after copy to backbuffer" to "flush" or "flush & wait (sleep)". Users have reported that this change eliminates presentation glitches during video playback, especially when switching to fullscreen or jumping during playback1 . Adjust Frame Presentation: Experiment with the number of frames to be presented in advance. Setting this value to 2, 3, or 6 can prevent the need for flushing and reduce glitches. Values like 1, 8, or 10 may lead to more frequent glitches1 . Regarding the fullscreen mode: the hardware chain is 3090 RTX 24GB to DENON X4800H to SAMSUNG S95C. I dont believe this is a hardware issue? the devices have more than enough bandwidth and resources to handle all this. but is something from the DENON AVR creating an impact? (ECO MODE ON? :-)) I will check on the memory consumption but as I checked already the taskmanager wehn tweaking NGU, the most resources used are with 2160p content 1080p the computer is bored very much but there the issue still occurs. I can post another screenshot during the next test. So which software client should i start to downgrade? only the NVIDIA Driver? Have any other settings in LAV Filters or madVR any impact on presentation glitches? Full fresh install of WIndows 11? can all those mega updates which are replacing almost everything or even everything can have an impact over time? Thank you |
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I don't really know, you can try those things, it's worth trying. As I mentioned earlier, if this problem didn't occur some weeks/months ago, something must have changed. You could try to revert whatever changed since then. |
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ok I started to test with old Nvidia drivers: 497.09-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql energy saving on all ends, DXVA Native, my standard NGU tweaked madVR Settings 45min of 2160p content works like a charm. continuing by go higher in the version now. |
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Cool, sounds promising! |
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516.94-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql energy saving on all ends, DXVA Native, my standard NGU tweaked madVR Settings 45min of 2160p content works like a charm. continuing by go higher in the version now. (Its a pity I have to work beside these tests and cannot watch the episodes .. :-) |
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522.25-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql energy saving on all ends, DXVA Native, my standard NGU tweaked madVR Settings 45min of 2160p content works like a charm. continuing by go higher in the version now. |
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531.68-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql energy saving on all ends, DXVA Native, my standard NGU tweaked madVR Settings 45min of 2160p content works like a charm. continuing by go higher in the version now. |
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FWIW, there is a concept that gets you to the goal much faster than going by one-by-one: Basically if you have 5 driver versions to test: - A - B - C - D - E Then you don't test A, B, C, D, E. Instead you test C first. If C passes the test, there's no need to test A and B. This approach can save *tons* of time. It's explained in more detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_search |
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yes thank you for the tip. I was actually starting with the oldest available from nvidia.com (was already problematic) then I went back to the one that windows 11 installs itself as default. (this was the first that worked) Now I am going upwards in big version number jumps to see as from when the issue starts. (I don't test every subversion of course.. not yet :-)) 535.98-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql energy saving on all ends, DXVA Native, my standard NGU tweaked madVR Settings 45min of 2160p content works like a charm. continuing by go higher in the version now |
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I just hope the 45 minute test will prove definite? It would be very annoying/sad if you go to all this trouble only to find out that it may run fine for 45 minutes, and then fail afterwards? ;( I sure hope not! |
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haha.. yes true.. life is really hard for such first world problems right before christmas ;-) Yes I believe it does proof within 45 minutes so far. Dont forget, the issue usually starts already after 10minutes..and this is what right now again happeneds ( and if you have tons of outstanding series to watch, I can combine the work with the fun. ) I reached already the next problematic driver version, right now: 545.92-desktop-win10-win11-64bit-international-dch-whql does NOT work anymore. And I made actually an observation I was not aware of before: everytime the issue starts the composite rate goes down to exactly 23.000Hz. What is the composite rate? and why does it change? it should have an value somewhere around 23,976Hz all the time. And as the frequency "flaps", it glitches obviously. please have a look at the screenshots attached. do you know what might go on here? I am actually the only one that has this problem? can anybody else check this? careful as it might not pop in your view immediately..I needed some movies until i understood that something is wrong. glitches are softer than framedrops. do you know what exactly changed per major driver version? between 535 and 545? |
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nvidia-geforce-game-ready-driver-537-58 works like a charm. Now I am getting troubles finding pages to download other versions. the nvidia archive / beta site does not work as it should. |
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This could potentially be a power saving feature that tries to switch to a lower frame rate to save power? But I'm not sure. Are you testing this on a laptop of desktop computer? The "composition rate" is the frame rate that DXGI / the Windows Desktop Manager uses internally. It should match the frame rate that you've selected in the Nvidia control panel. Doing some research, I've found this: https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/wiki/how-to-disable-windows-10-hardware-gpu-scheduler |
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this is a desktop computer HTPC sitting my living room. madVR is configured to switch to 2160p23 when I go fullscreen. Most of the content is 24p the hardware accelerate GPU Scheduling HAGS is activated in my OS. I will switch that off and try again. ( I have no clue what it does nor why it is activated, but looking at the microsoft description it must be the holy grail.) thank you madshi for always replying and giving me hints and tips. (your software is really crying for a commercial and professional development :) I cannot watch content anymore without this enhancement in my setup.) grafik-2.png (104,012 bytes) |
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Well, I do sell a commercial hardware product which has the madVR algos built-in... ;) Unlike the madVR HTPC software, which is free, the hardware device is super expensive, though. |
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hah! Yes I saw your machine at a home cinema expert vendor. It is really very expensive. :-D for us HTCP enthusiasts only the license for the software might be enough, we have the hardware already :-) I would buy it for the sake of support In exactly such cases where the OS and Divers are changing. Maybe this version of madVR will not be able to run forever :-( Again: there are worlds between using and not using your algorithms. When I ask ChatGPT about if HAGS might have an impact on madVR it says: High Demands on Frame-Pacing Accuracy: madVR is designed to output frames at a very consistent rate. HAGS can introduce unpredictable delays or inconsistencies, especially during GPU-based decoding or complex post-processing tasks. I have not tested it yet.. by default HAGS is not activated in windows. And it really could be I activated this for the Flight Simulator tuning those days and forgot about it again. It is strange that I do not read about HAGS more in the medias. However: old drivers seem to be able to work with it then. |
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It seems that HAGS only works if the drivers support it, so there is a chance that the Nvidia driver which introduced this problem is the first Nvidia driver which supports HAGS. But I could be wrong, it's only a wild guess. |
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in earlier days you had direct connections to nvidia right? would you still be able to find this out? and would this be an nvidia issue in the end or is a madvr adaptation needed? (*help!* i see dark clouds coming up :-) |
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I have a connection to an Nvidia dev, but I'm scared of losing him if I make too many requests, so I'm using this connection only very rarely and only for super-important (to me) stuff. I still don't know yet what your specific issue is. It could be Nvidia's fault, it could be Microsoft's fault, it could be madVR's fault, I've no idea. |
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sure I understand. test is running :) Nvidia 566.36 HAGS disabled. |
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(i see already now in the madvr overlay that display rate and composition rate are not permanently flickering and changing the Hz number (23,976, 23,978, 23,977 etc composition rate stays at 23.976 ... that might be good sign) 10min 1. test passed successfully! |
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ok this is now interesting what is going on. 20min test passed successfully! one presentation glitch is fine. composition rate however fell down to 23.000Hz. but everything is stable! It really look like disabling HAGS had an effect.. repeating the test again for 40min. |
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No idea why the composition rate fell to 23.000Hz, that should not happen. |
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test was successful! repeating the test again. In the beginning it stays almost stable on 23.976Hz. I dont know when it exactly it switched to 23.000 But as long as the image is smooth ... I would not know where I can influence this behavior? |
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I don't know, either. Maybe it's just a cosmetical glitch and has no meaning, I'm not sure. |
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final test was successful! 1 presentation glitch during 40 minutes and the composition rate stays at 23.976Hz. Having this sorted out I am really delighted and happy it could be solved so easily. Madshi I would like to thank you for your precious hint. I was not led into the direction of HAGS during my research. I believe as the setting is per default disabled and it is not well known, users would not really touch it, therefore it is not seen in comments on the internet, at least not in combination with madVR or HomeCinema on HTPC. I was tuning my PC for VR and Flight Simulator and I am pretty sure I switched this on because of gaming reasons. However I forgot about it and was really not aware of this anymore nor about what side effect this can have. I would say topic closed. I hope we still can count on madVR in the future and that Microsoft and Nvidia will take such things into considerations. I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year! All the best Sandro |
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HAGS: DLSS 3.0 Frame Generation only works with Hardware Accelerated GPU Scheduling (HAGS) enabled but it causes issues using it in VR, they say... haha... we hope this will be fixed for all kinds of entertainment soon :) |
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Yeah, I didn't even know HAGS existed. ChatGPT pointed me to it after I told him about your issues with the composition rate. |
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Hi. Just wanted to say that I had this same strange issue and disabling HAGS worked for me as well! |
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Yey! |
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It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas :-) Nice that we could fix this. (I don't want to overstretch this thread actually but still wanted to inform that after finding time now for some extensive series marathons , I still have some shudders from time to time, but the OSD shows no frame drops or presentation glitches at all . Some really ugly ones with sound interrupts during Dolby Atmos Stream happened as well. I went for 2160p content from NGU back to Jinc, which helps a lot but does not completely resolve the issue. And if I found no "calmness" in the image at all I restarted the computer. In other words, I am still not finished yet finding the final tweak for finally being able to watch highest quality content without having some sorrows. It might also be the content.. I am continuing with testing even more different sources. . (If you have an eye for micro flickers , you will see every single one, right ? :-) Merry Christmas everywhere! |
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Strange, works fine here. Are you sure it's not the content? If the sound interrupts, that sounds like the issue might be outside of madVR, to be honest. Usually, even if madVR is in some kind of trouble, audio still plays fine, because madVR is not involved in audio rendering at all. So this might point towards some issue on the content or playback side of things. But it's hard to be 100% sure about these kinds of things. |
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Is this issue perhaps specific to Windows 11 24H2? |
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Good Morning all I am really also starting to think, if this is a Win 11 24H2 issue, about HAGS. I have not searched deeper there as I am not playing games at the moment. But it will again be important when I need to tweak VR for the youngest FS2024 :-) In regards to my next issue: I must admit that I was not very precise about dropped frames: It looks like I am now stumbling over the old issue about 24p and 23.976p content. Content with source 24p generate every 41 Seconds a frame drop. (As I am switching from fullscreen to desktop all the time it did not catch my eyes immediately again and I thought the frame drops are because of this. But then i checked the X frames repeat every XXXX seconds values which pointed me to this old issue. So even going back to from NGU to Jinc did not help to resolve that problem. What I do not really understand is, why do I notice this only now? I am checking now all the content I have about if the source says 24Hz or 23.976Hz. Problem: It is not possible to switch to exact 24p with madvr display modes. So I believe this is now going to another rather known issue and I am not sure I should further discuss it here. how to deal with this concretely in madvr? Perplexity says i can just "switch to 2160p24 in display mode configs in madvr but this does not work.. my setup switches to 120Hz. And of course the last question: can anybody recreate my observations? |
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You should be able to switch to both 23.976 and 24.000, unless your display doesn't support 24fps. |
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PS: examples for 24p content in my case are the seasons Silo 02 and Secret Level 01. |
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I can switch the windows desktop to 24p. During the first test with display mode config set to 2160p24, after going fullscreen with the player my computer went into a mode which only a hard reset of the computer could end :-) but then with the second test after the reboot it just works. (see screenshot) No clue what is going wring here. It seems like although the source is identified correctly, the player does not switch the display mode accordingly in full screen. the screen is capable of doing 24p without issues. |
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(excuse me, one small correction, Silo 02 is not 24p Second check done with "That Christmas" in 24p successfully.. (going to fullscreen in the wrong moment can however hang up the display and computer completely and i can only release it by doing a hard reboot). ) |
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the following entries together are andatory to deal with this :-) I don't know why my very first test where not successful with it. Screenshot 2024-12-25 120622.jpg (28,768 bytes) |
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You should add 2160p59 to the list. |
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ok thanks for the tip! will do! BTW in this thread below people are experiencing the same as me since about a year ago and they even found out about the same that HAGS does have an impact if you got to the last of the entries. User Manni reports in 2023 the same issues I had. Even with all configs cleared and OSD Shows no problems, there are some micro schudders visible. https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1993317 further config changes I did now are: present several frames ahead to 2 put the player exe in task manager to high cpu priority. lets see how it goes. |
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Good Day After several movies and series I can say all is perfect again! Sugarsweet colors with superfluid image. All content runs perfectly fine in the for my setup most tweaked NGU Anti Aliasing configuration. (I even switched now from DXVA to D3D11 in LAV). I believe the last (in the OSD invisible micro shudders) finally went away with the "present several frames ahead to 2" setting. Most important is also to set all display modes of the TV manually and correctly. Until tweaking the Graphics for Games again (HAGS) I am very well with this. Issues Resolved: Endless presentation glitches counts after 10minutes of playback > disable HAGS in Windows Framedrops after 41seconds with 24p content > configure correctly display modes in madvr manually (eg 2160p23, 2160p24) Micro Shudders from time to time, not visible in OSD > go down to present several frames ahead to "2" The latest Nvidia Drivers can be used but seem not to be able to handle HAGS correctly yet for this Home Cinema setup. I hope that new NVIDIA Drivers will be checked carefully against HomeCinema and WIndows 11 features including Games and VR again, so we will be able to use all performance enhancements everywhere in future without worrying but always getting everywhere the maximum possible results. (I believe If you buy graphics cards for such high prices it should be for sure that such support is granted.) I am ready for a "Happy New Year"! Thanks again for all your help and its good to know you are still alive here :) S. |
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Oh, I'm still very alive, it's just that due to the Envy hardware business, I only have very little time for the madVR HTPC software. Maybe at some point I'll find some more time for it again, I'm not sure. |
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Lowering the present frames in advance (3 or less) solution for (micro)stuttering has been mentioned lots of times on Doom9. madshi, could you please adjust the default value in your next beta? |
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It seems weird that this would be necessary. Could it be that there are some Nvidia "3D" settings that need to be adjusted for this to work smoothly? I think there may be some settings that affect how many frames may be rendered in advance or something like that? |
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that's been needed since the 2000 series release. having present in advanced at 1-3 is the default recommendation for many many years. to avoid frame drops not reported by the OSD. the situation is so desperate stuff like this is been tested these days: https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=2007375&postcount=3293 also disabling some windows feature like mpo: https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5157/~/after-updating-to-nvidia-game-ready-driver-461.09-or-newer%2C-some-desktop-apps BTW. HAGS is essential for intel GPU and the newest intel release was so utterly amazing they are sold out. intel GPU are from a bad joke to sold out in 1 gen. so disabling it is a big deal. changing nvidia settings is also seen as mandatory these days to get glitch free madVR playback like forcing vsync for your application changing power settings and so on. the GPU driver prerendered frames is now renamed to Virtual Reality pre rendered frames and is 1-4 not 1-8, external tools like colorcontrol still allows you to set it to 8. because you missed HAGs you may missed rbar this is maybe useful for 3D LUT's. and this is just the stuff i remember instantly. |
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Yeah, having a safe and sensible default value in MadVR is essential. The driver default seems to be a max of 3. I think this controls the flip queue size. So perhaps exceeding it results in less efficient discard swap mode? Users still have the freedom to increase the value themselves if their hardware supports it properly. But I don't think rendering more than 3 frames in advance has any real significant benefits? Just increased lag? |
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Hello all I must admit I was not aware of that these issues have been present already so long time. Might be that different setups of hardware and windows configurations may not instantly make the problems visible for everyone at once? In the beginning I was not finding that solutions about my issue as I probably did not choose the right search terms. It also turned out that I have more than just one issue. I did also not notice about the content changes from 23.976 to 24 to be honest.. somehow on earlier machines and windows versions my setup has not had these problems. HAGS: is Microsoft and Nvidia aware about such issues? Sounds like there is no way around it in future for regardless what gfx card and software? @huhn: would you mind to post a complete list of fine tunings of Windows, nvidia Driver, LAV and madVR in a row, which are currently bullet proof to have smooth playback from your point of view? My configs for now work pretty well but I did not apply any registry hacks nor did I change the settings about cache flushing in madvr, only HAGS is still disabled. I also did not config nvidia driver for vsync and still have all power consumption on low. and last but not least: madvr beta? where? :-) |
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there is no bulletproof way try to disable fullscreen optimization at your player executable and use full screen exclusive this way you will get back the old "true" FSE which technically can't glitch anymore. |
- Anonymous
